Curse

Thallandor · Nov 29, 2006, 02:21 AM // 02:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

I received an interesting PM today, basically calling me an idiot (and "YOUR WRONG") and that Thallandor "owned me." Won't paraphrase it, though.

Corrected? hopefully not on purpose. Just a fyi i had no part to play in the pm, other than asking you to read what you write a few more times before posting it, from my response to the OP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

Yeesh, don't the Paragon defenders think that they could be the slightest bit mature about this and not resort to childish ad hominemattacks?

See above comment.

There has been many suggestions that been proposed including providing more counters which may work without reducing the Paragon class to the now invalid ritualist class. Your comments however has been less than helpful and perhaps the same can be said of mine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

I like glountz's skill suggestions, though. Buff the counters.

I agree.

__________________________________________________
One have lost his arguement when he raises his voice

lilnate22 · Nov 29, 2006, 02:39 AM // 02:39

well zinger like isaid b4. there no counter can be affective. y? cuz there is a counter for that counter. the dcounter for paragons depend on how well u utilize the skills
place RW far away but yet in range so when sum1 goes to kill it he will over xtend, stack hexes then use diversion on monk that has hexremoval.

those are some tactics u can use. do note that GW isnt all about skill, its how u use those skills.

Enchanted Warrior · Nov 29, 2006, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Everytime they add new profs they overpower them on purpose. Then as time goes by they make them worthless. The cycle continues..

Lord Oranos · Nov 29, 2006, 02:49 AM // 02:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by lilnate22

and as for you "lord oranos" i atacked no one. but rather any one who called for a nerf w/o even thinking about the REAL posibilites.
im glad that zinger FINALLY understand (i thnink) that paragons only need a real minor tweek. and that the counters them selves hav to be buffed.

Thanks for typing like you are talking down to me.

So you mean the person you attacked wasn't worthy of being deemed human? The op thought of the possibilities, but you just wanted to go on a rant about people wanting changes, shocking.

Zingers OP wasn't even a "huge nerf", minor tweaks like upping finale to 10en, upping the recharge for incoming, making it an anti spike skill, not something 3 chars can loop to have constant 50% damage reduction.

Your very first post was pretty much summed up as "cry more nub" and the contribution was changing Incoming to 10 energy, as finale being 10 energy was already in the first post. Putting two more Adn on GFTE isn't going to damage it much.

The REAL possibilities are that they can be countered by a select amount of skills that are easily countered as well.

I haven't heard of Anet releasing new skills like some people suggest, but hey, anything can happen...

Enchanted Warrior · Nov 29, 2006, 03:23 AM // 03:23

The OP voiced his/her opinions, and is entitled. Ignore the loud mouths, the uber feebs and alike. We all have moments in game when we feel a genuine concern about something only to have it cheapened and ridiculed by trolls and board dwellers that hate life almost as much as they hate themselves. I can feel for them sometimes, life in their parents basements must suck ya know?

OP, rawk on you made some valid points. (And I have a Paragon )

JoeKnowMo · Nov 29, 2006, 03:40 AM // 03:40

Regarding the Incoming chain (3 players using it back-to-back-to-back) maybe it should be moved to the Leadership attribute so secondary paragons won't gain any use from it.

This thread got a little heated and perhaps I overreacted at the OP, B Ephekt and others who weren't calling for a complete nerf of the paragon (although that was my initial impression).

@twicky_kid: Great points on the lack of hex builds in pvp. I would like to see that issue addressed as well.

Enchanted Warrior · Nov 29, 2006, 03:42 AM // 03:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

Regarding the Incoming chain (3 players using it back-to-back-to-back) maybe it should be moved to the Leadership attribute so secondary paragons won't gain any use from it.

This thread got a little heated and perhaps I overreacted at the OP, B Ephekt and others who weren't calling for a complete nerf of the paragon (although that was my initial impression).

@twicky_kid: Great points on the lack of hex builds in pvp. I would like to see that issue addressed as well.

Hell mesmers do this in pvp now. They cast Phantasm etc over and over and over, in turn with each other..

lyra_song · Nov 29, 2006, 03:45 AM // 03:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enchanted Warrior

Hell mesmers do this in pvp now. They cast Phantasm etc over and over and over, in turn with each other..

Ya but you can remove and prevent hexes. And you can interrupt spells easily.

-.-

HolyHawk · Nov 29, 2006, 03:59 AM // 03:59

You see, adding more counters would mean more hexes I suppose, but that would also mean builds going to hex heavy side. I do think conditions and shouts that disable should should exist to give more options, like lacerny/thieveries do; I am more inclined to rework dazed for shouts/ chants actually. Btw, do echoes fit into "spell" definition? If not, maybe they should.

BahamutKaiser · Nov 29, 2006, 04:47 AM // 04:47

The only time you need to PM someone is if you need to correct or congratulate them without being obnoxious, I find that rather childish. But I also find the idea that everything should be nerfed if it works well pretty childish as well.

As many have said, the only reason other classes have any difficulty is because many of their skills just get nerfed over and over.

Having an indominable Paragon lineup is no different than having an indominable Monk lineup, a support heavy build is going to last, and the fact that a team with 2 paragons and a paragon secondary, as well as at least 1, likely 2 monks survives like a mountain isn't a surprise. The fact that bringing half a team of support unit ensures longetivity really doesn't impress, of course it does, half their team is support...... What WERE you expecting?

If you were against a party of 3 monks rotating Aegis and a Ritualist spamming spirits, would melee attacks get through?

Reduced damage has its advantages and disadvantages. Advantages like overall less damage, but completely open to interrupts, conditions application and attack rewards (energy return for criticals and such), is it overpowered? Imagine if there was an elite version of Aegis?, how strong would it be?, how cheap would it be?, how often could you use it? Imagine it was on a class which had better defensive abilities, and worse healing abilities. You would have "Incoming" on a Paragon class, and it is perfectly balanced. Paragon has its advantages and disadvantages, just because a skill is effective doesn't mean that it is broken. What Anet should do is start returning much of the power that has been stripped away in the past and allow more classes to be effective. Paragon requires a party to be bunched together to receive powerful support effects. The would be no problem at all if DoT spells wern't axe murdered, but instead improved like I have been saying since the game came out. Naturally when the situation which requires it finally arrives, you just want to nerf that too, so the classes you use are proficient again.

All I can say is you don't know how to manage a good game. There are 2 ways to fix the problem, nerfs, or improvements. I don't have to debate which is more enjoyable, and whether you recognize it or not, it is a better solution. Nerfs will lead to more nerfs, which lead to mundain gameplay, which leads to less sales, which leads to the end of the game. Improvements lead to more enjoyment, more sales, and a longer lifespan. I have seen the power of nerfs in previous games, and they never prosper, the players who enjoyed the function become disgruntal, and turn to all the other classes and call for nerfs, those classes get nerfs, and it exponetially weakens the game until everyone is disappointed and unhappy. The cycle has already begun, there are alot of skills which were never that great to begin with which are totally crap now, and just as many which were enjoyable and now are broken.

When you choose to nerf, you choose to keep nerfing, and the nerfing will continue until improvements are chosen. And the longer you continue to nerf, the harder it is to switch to improvements, because the cycle of nerfs has lowered the effectiveness of everything in the game, and require extreme retroactive developement to return everything to enjoyable means. Nerfing is not the solution.

As stated, these builds require close proximity and clustering, the class which has always been involved with group damage has been nerfed since day one up til now, now there is a situation which requires it to be even more powerful than it ever was, but now a legacy of nerfing stands between improvement and balance, and you want to nerf some more. It is obvious that DoT spells need to be returned to area wide effects, and they all need a 1/3rd reduction, if not 1/2 reduction in recast time, as well as improving the radius and recast time on most other elementist skills, to make it easier for Elementist to punish groups. Likewise, Dervish need to have their attacks returned to the way they were, if they are in a situation where they are surrounded by more than 3 enemies, than they damn well need the advantage, and when the face of battle includes 3 enemies with "Incoming", they damn sure need it.

Likewise, there is no reason why 2 paragons cannot be on your team providing the same effect. Is it broken?, no more than 2 or 3 monks being a standard part of every team. People act like it is broken just because a new face has become a common appearance in battle, it isn't the first class which is required in any team, and hopefully not the last.

And all this nerf trash for what? Will anything change if they increase Incomings cost to 10 energy?, will it be less difficult to damage the enemy when it has a 30 second recast? No it woln't it is still going to be just as powerful, and balanced so, the enemy will bring more copies of it if they need to, bring skills which increase the duration, and what? You think a 5 second laps in use is going to give you the advantage you need to win?, Whatever. There needs to be attacks which will punish the enemy even if they have that defense, there needs to be much stronger, effective, economic, and frequent group damaging spells in elementist and other classes to make staying together a liability. When DoT owns grouped units and there are 5 other spells which can punish a group like Rodgorts Flame, there woln't be a problem with "Incoming" builds. People will be ringing out the Ward Against Elements just so their paragons can survive, and the game will be balanced again, the way it should have been, and enjoyable at the same time.

Qual · Nov 29, 2006, 05:44 AM // 05:44

Well I pull my statement back then.

It is just that the last few days I have been fighting alot of top 200 guilds, and "incoming" or not we could still spike them down. You talk alot about the "incoming chains". I have yet not seen this, maybe we just got lucky in my guild? But I watch alot of games in observe as well. And here I am still in need to see this "incoming chains" you are talking about

pingu666 · Nov 29, 2006, 05:47 AM // 05:47

nice ideas in that post. maybe add some conditions that hinder the paragon directly (muteism?) or effect the group or everything in the area.

eg meteor shower causes "shellshock", shellshock condition basicaly causes deafness, or missunderstanding. could also chuck in some random side effects (mild blindness/weakeness etc)

im really enjoying my paragon in pve, fulfilling his intended role nicely of a battlefield commander, probably abit too good (i hardly ever have energy problems for example).

adding conditions to ele stuff could work well, maybe have counter shouts or something from mesmers.

deep wound could reduce the range of shout/chant aswell.

sorry if these have been suggested before, i skipped pages :P

HKSdivision · Nov 29, 2006, 06:05 AM // 06:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

Now, for a few other problems:

Low Adrenal Shouts: [skill=text]"Watch Yourself!"[/skill] and [skill=text]"Go for the Eyes!"[/skill] can be spammed very constantly, giving the Paragon near unlimited Energy. I like the mechanic, but it's a tad abuseable. Upping both to 6 adrenaline should make both of those more reasonable. (and probably a recharge of 10ish seconds on "Watch Yourself!")

Quote:

Originally Posted by kang

if you do that to watch yourself, it will be useless to warriors who use it in PvE. It was designed to be able to be kept up on warriors when they are fighting, if you pile a bunch of nerfs on it, then itill be useless.

easier solution: make it that echos and the leadership thing only work on PARAGON shouts, rather than ruining a warrior skill

I agree with you Kang. "Watch Yourself!" doesn't need to be nerfed. I use it all the time in PvE and it helps me so making it an energy based skill with a 10ish second recharge would be stupid. Also, NOT everyone does HA or GvG (Like myself) so I'm against this idea.

Darkobra · Nov 29, 2006, 11:59 AM // 11:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by lilnate22

there u go finally using your brain. instead of calling for a a nerf skills shoud be buffed

and he did make a killer statement against you.

and i hardly doubt its a hominem attack. more of a sstatement

and us "paragon defenders" can careless about paragons. we just hate stupid ppl who call for nerfs w/o even thinking.
p.s we also hate cry babies.

You're crying that some one called for a nerf. You're also similar to the person that attacked her, just using "intelligence" as a matter of you being "right" and her being "wrong". Well guess what? There is no true belief. Oh, and this is just a statement, so don't go crying over it now.

lilnate22 · Nov 29, 2006, 12:06 PM // 12:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Oranos

Thanks for typing like you are talking down to me.

So you mean the person you attacked wasn't worthy of being deemed human? The op thought of the possibilities, but you just wanted to go on a rant about people wanting changes, shocking.

Zingers OP wasn't even a "huge nerf", minor tweaks like upping finale to 10en, upping the recharge for incoming, making it an anti spike skill, not something 3 chars can loop to have constant 50% damage reduction.

Your very first post was pretty much summed up as "cry more nub" and the contribution was changing Incoming to 10 energy, as finale being 10 energy was already in the first post. Putting two more Adn on GFTE isn't going to damage it much.

im not down w/ the deep wound idea though, the best bet is weakness.

im fine w/ ppl that call for nerfs. like sering F> needs a major nerf. no other way to fix it.

but most of the paragon stuff dont need nerfs, but tweaks and more counters.

do u ever read?
some of my post actualy has ideas for counter. and if you think this is talking down... you havnt seen talking down.

and as for you asying vry more nub. if you have even a 3rd grade reading level ud c that from the begining i agreed that sumthing had to be done about paragons, just not to the xtreames of some ppl, like i said b4 the only things that needs a NERF is incoming 10e and SF. the rest is to fix the counters.

qual. ive seen what they are talking about. but it was barely a prob for my guilds because we had degen running on our team. but most of the time youll c a SOR and a INC paragon not 2x inc.

Juicey Shake · Nov 29, 2006, 02:34 PM // 14:34

He could have a college reading level and still not be able to read the trash you post, don't go on about that!

I like paragons, qq ; _ ;

Lord Oranos · Nov 29, 2006, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by lilnate22

im not down w/ the deep wound idea though, the best bet is weakness.

im fine w/ ppl that call for nerfs. like sering F> needs a major nerf. no other way to fix it.

but most of the paragon stuff dont need nerfs, but tweaks and more counters.

do u ever read?
some of my post actualy has ideas for counter. and if you think this is talking down... you havnt seen talking down.

and as for you asying vry more nub. if you have even a 3rd grade reading level ud c that from the begining i agreed that sumthing had to be done about paragons, just not to the xtreames of some ppl, like i said b4 the only things that needs a NERF is incoming 10e and SF. the rest is to fix the counters.

qual. ive seen what they are talking about. but it was barely a prob for my guilds because we had degen running on our team. but most of the time youll c a SOR and a INC paragon not 2x inc.

I saw your post, the very first one was just about a couple of skill changes, the only reason I summed it up as it meaning "cry more nub" is because you complained about yet another person wanting something changed. Ive seen your ideas, and thoughts on the subject, and while I doubt the conditions will be changed, its an interesting idea.

Zinger wasn't calling for an extreme nerf, just 5 more energy on one skill, maybe 10 seconds extra recharge on another and a skill being upped by 2 adrenaline. And the counters most likely will see a buff, its almost expected really... and sorry, I was a bit offended by "and as for you "lord oranos"". So please, lay off the insults, I can read just fine.

Etrik · Nov 29, 2006, 10:54 PM // 22:54

To all the people saying Incoming is not imba:

Enduring Harmony + 2 Incoming Paragons. Did I mention Vocal was Sogolon + Enduring + Incoming? No? Okay.

Take 1s duration off of Incoming, up EF's cost and recharge to 10, give Leadership a tiny nerf, give Mysticism a boost [kinda like preview version].

Cybah · Nov 29, 2006, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thallandor

Source? Start a poll or dont make assumptions.

No adrenline gain = no shouts.

Perhaps i should start a thread on how:

-Shambling Horrors are overoverpowered, lets nerf it
-mesmers interupts are too powerful lets nerf them too.
-Oh lets not forget Searing Flames, since so many people are QQing about it too.
-Oh dont forget mending as well since its overpowered, meaning healing is overpowered too, lets nerf monks.
-Lets nerf all NF skills and class while we are at this and remove Heros from the game also.

And since this is in suggestion forums.
/Not signed

lol agree xD

remember: paragons are only welcome in heroway groups (im talking of pve) because of go for the eyes abuse. you would make them useless in pve by nerfing all their good skills.

since I'm pve only player, I won't pick paragon anymore then.

Issac · Nov 30, 2006, 01:46 AM // 01:46

Paragons seem to be ONLY ment for being supporters. Thats all cool but they have a nice weapon and sheild and 80 armor like a warrior so they should make them more fighting.